Bots - Feedback from players

[ECB-Bookie]

Below is Cut and Pasted from Chat room on 11/14/2018. I asked players to comment on bots and share thoughts and i am now posting here for momo to see:

HeavyRoller[130] : seriously, momo should stop masquerading behind players names. it's totally disingineous and damage integrity of game. Call them bot1, bot, or whatever. if you must use player profile, let them be customizable by the player. i'm happy to have my saved decks used, but I want a coin reward. if my bot wins to incentivize me setting a challenging/varying deck.

Bookie: I understand bots are part of game based on the player base. However, when I play ladder I encounter the same bot identical up to 10-15 times in one ladder season. For example I will play a Scar bot, a Klaus bot, and a Backfud bot. In 200 game ladder probably 30 of my matches were against these bots and each bot deck was identical so it was the same match each time. I knew what was coming and played the same cards everytime to win. So the pool of bots that the game is pulling from is extremely small and this is resulting in facing the same identical bots over and over again. Can the pool of bots be much much larger? Why am I only seeing 3 or 4 of the same bots over and over again?

Honchking[126]: make bots customuzable but have to make multiple formations fr it to be used in the bot pool and indicate that its a bot in match. possibly connsdier locking cards used for high level players or else you get nothing up double da ji dancer decks. thats a balance problem that should be handled separately. there has to be some kinda commitment for bot or else the kitty shield cancer decks gonna be everywhere.

HeavyRoller[130]: the bot pool meta will (should) evolve if that happens. that's a problem with or without bots.

Bookie: I think there can be at least 2 types of bots. random cards or player decks. For example random cards of a cap based on your rank maybe?

Heavyroller: random would pretty much suk for the most part. need to look at the points that bots give in ladder. high win rate bots should give more points. random decks low points

Honchking: random cards for levels 50 or below after that welcome to the real world

Bookie: It seems to me they are pulling from current games in classic does that sound right?

HeavyRoller: for matchups with new/veteran playres set the challenge appropriately. maybe classic or perhaps hardcore. momo should be open and explain the current bot policy. i dont want to waste energy suggesting ideas based on uncertainty

(maybe momo you can respond to this post?)

Bookie: How do you feel about rematches in pro to reduce bot interactions?

Heavyroller: Rematches are fine, but it pollutes ladder. I could go toe vs toe against honch and be 50/50. whereas some noob hits random bots all day and be 100%.

Bookie: My suggest is the loser of the match would be asked if they want to rematch the player. They can say yes or no. If they say no they move on to the next match if they say yes they get one more final match so at most 2.

Heavyroller: It will be abused?

Lonewolf[129]: Do they put bots here just because there is not enough players?

Bookie: If real player matches were guaranteed to be worth double a bot match most players would request the rematch in my opinion.

Heavyroller[130]: some people cheat. They'll double up on points with accomplice.

Siriprapa [130]: gg Bookie

Bookie: That was bot siri i haven't played, lol

Lonewolf: that is sad

Bookie: A rematch has to be requested only by the losing player only. The stronger player cannont simply rematch vs a noob they just beat easily.

[ECB-Bookie]

Heavyroller: evenmore likely then for the loser to throw the rematch or his guild

lonewolf: rematch takes too much time i can be in another battle time they say

Heavyroller: Yes, momo should explain why i fight egan bot endlessly

lonewolf: yes same here

Heavy roller: thats why the players should craft the bot pool

Bookie: so guys is there any way rematch could work or are you against it?

lonewolf: i like the game i win some and lose some i just want to play real players. i vote no for rematch that's just me

Heavyroller: im for it but not in ladder.

heavyroller: if we used saved decs for the bot pool i can crate 15 varieties.

Bookie: yes but the 15 bots i create are all gimick decks to trick you. All face down cards it will be no fun.. You dont know if its a skeleton archer spell deck, a fairy trap deck, or a heal deck. The first 5 cards will all be face down. personally hate the idea because pro will be lame core gimick decks.

Heavyroller: that's what we are facing now.

Bookie: I'm all for intelligent selection if thats possible. First 3 cards random. Then randomly pick 2 from 10 possible decent counter cards. The programming is obviously much harder.

Heavyroller: I was thinking of a quick partial fix. Intelligent bot selection has been done successfully elsewhere but is nt easy to design nor implement

(momo this would obviously be the best case scenario no? But is it doable at this time?)

Bookie: Well my biggest problem is the bot variety. I will play the same 3 bots over and over and over again. Each one I will play the same deck at least 10 times in one season.

Heavyroller: my guess is that bots are involved in 80+% of matches. As is it is such an integral part of the game at the moment, like it or not. the other option is for the players to vote in bot decks. we can have a top 100 or top 500 which creates the bot pool.

Bookie: I think random bots are still good though. easier for new players , builds confidcence. there should be at least two types of bots random and copycat

Heavyroller: Probably a neccesity actual for a brand new player.

Heavyroller: another option is to have players vote on bots. If they are toxic we can vote them out. I want my name removed from my bot that is my #2 wish.

Bookie; Agreed random names please

[ECB-Bookie]

Bookie: If they are pulling from a database the database needs to be bigger and more varied, less repetitive

Bookie: I think a random cap 45 deck would still be challenging. For example cap is based on your rank. Masters level random bot cap is 45, platinum is 42, gold is 39, silver is 36, and bronze is 33.

Heavyroller: but ladder rewards need to match the bots challenge level

bookie: agree, tht type of bots has noobs playing easier bot decks till they move up in rank

Heavyroller: Bear in mind my classic deck is cap 25 and wins 95+%. Because evolved cards dont increase the cap so a level 50 hero and level 50 slash strike is the same as level 1 epic.

Bookie: that's true but levels could be randomized as well

Heavyroller: Random levels and random placement can be used to vary a stock bot which solves your blind fairy issue.

Bookie: what would be good to some degree with random is the match would be differen everytime and require more thought.

Heavyroller: Agree

Bookie: please post ideas and speak up everyone. Hopoefully with enough input we can get momo to change or improve the situation.

Heavyroller: Momo has to want to change

Bookie: I believe bots can be used to grow the game if done correctly. If done incorrectly it can damage the game so if momo agrees with this then it would be worth it to them as well to consider all of this.

[ECB-Bookie]

A Recap of What I think what was covered in the conversation


- Rematches were not something players openly wanted (that surprised me)
- The Current Bot Database/pool is too small and not varied enough
- Random Bots could work, but points should be based off dificulty
- Need to continue to make sure bots cant be abused in ladder so worth less dp than real players
- If you are pulling random decks from players quick match, core match, or saved decks then names should be hidden or randomized
- Bots could be varied in difficulty based on player ranking. Low rank players could get easier bots, but face harder bots as they move up in rank. Could be good confidence builder for new players that way.
- Based on this there could be at least two types of bots (player decks and random bots)
- Intelligent bots could be ideal but that all depends on programming difficulty and desire on momos part


We would love to hear what you think momo?

[ecb_admin]

It's quite strange, the scenerio you described is not the system expected to work. Shadow deck(s) is pulled from the decks all players played before, and because the huge number of decks in database, it should not be repeated or player is not supposed to encounter "same" player that frequentlly.
We received same feedback from Fireflies recently, and is investigating the case to find out what's wrong.
We understand it will affect players' experience. Thank you for bringing it up.

Ideally, player should face different opponenet, different deck each time.

[ECB-Bookie]

Suggest to look at my ladder games from this season and last to see that I play the same blackfud bot everyday in ladder for last three weeks at least once per day and maybe twice always the same deck. I assume it’s a bot it always is the same deck and blackfud is a very intelligent player who doesn’t spam mindlessly. Perhaps I am wrong

[ecb_admin]

Dear Player,

After a few days' investigation. We have located the cause. It seems the cause it's player keep spaming exact same deck, so the system will have higher chance to get same shadow deck from that player.
We have improved the match making system to address this issue.
Please let us know if it improves or there is anything suspicious.

[ECB-Bookie]

Cool, hopefully that works, thanks